Drivers

[Luvi]

Antonio, pues yo tengo la solución, tengo en venta un driver caro caro caro caro, de media 300 metros, eso si,
si la das en la yema, los pasas con creces, si es esto lo que buscas mandame un privado

[zocato]

Para que os hagáis una idea soy lo que se conoce como pegador ya que pego unos 215 o 220 metros de driver.

¿y donde es ese sitio donde se llama "pegadores" a los que hacéis 220m?

Como marcas caras, las ya mencionadas de Homna y Nakashima... mira a ver si en Miura tiene drivers... lo que son los hierros, cuestan un pastón.

[WhiteTiger]

Yo no lo queria decir pero tengo un driver pegador pegador que te mueres(solo te digo que le pise el drive a bubba) y caro es un cojon vamos que si es caro,es perfecto para ti. Titleist 983 k varilla de tour prolite! 1000eruis q tal suficiente?si kieres lo subo a 1500leuris,como prefieras,si pagar te da mas confianza.... es coña hombre,si kieres dejarte la pasta mira los miura dicen que son la lexe!

[torero118]

hicos, y los drivers de esas marcas en que tiendas se pueden comprar??

en internet hay alguna en la que vengan los precios??

un saludo y muchas gracias

[Dró]

Cuánto tiempo sin leerlos!

Realmente son muy divertidos y saben...y tienen paciencia.

Qué dificil que es aconsejar a alguien cuando quiere algo "caro" como dato principal.

Serán reales o irónicas sus consultas?
Será una víctima del marketing? (como todos, pero un poco más...) "Hay que consumir para jugar bien"

Mis Mizuno TZoid Pro son viejos, no son lindos, yo soy malo,
pero que sensación única!!!! (o casi úníca) y son muy muy baratos...
Y pegan distancias bárbaras,
a veces cuando me "equivoco" con el h4 casi casi lo alcanzaría nuestro amigo con el drive...

Abrazo.

[Harold]

Ala otro post para enmarcar...

Habrá que crear un área nueva en plan "Frikylandia"

Y otra seccion "Fantasmolandia"

[alanch]

me cago en la leche...... y yo que no me habia dado cuenta de este post...........

que jarta a reir..... pero de verdad, me he tenido que ir al baño porque se han quedado todos mirandome asi

Perdona Antonio, perdona........


pero yo que soy un manta con el Driver.. el otro dia di con el mio que es nuevo una bola que *****.... yo creo que paso los 300m si quieres te lo vendo, y te pongo un lacito........ porque no le he vuelto a dar.



p.d. perdona la coña....

[oldgarcia]

El caso es que en los foros americanos, especialmente en BombSquadGolf, tienen hilos e hilos dedicados a las diferencias entre las versiones "de calle" de los drivers y las versiones Tour (que están homologadas pero, por lo visto, son más molonas). que no sé si es a lo que se refería el autor del primer post antes de que el hilo se fuera al garete.

De hecho, tienen dos secciones del foro de equipo, una para material "retail" y otra para material "tour". Si controláis de inglés y queréis dedicarle un rato, echad un vistazo a este enlace:

http://www.bombsquadgolf.com/invboard_r ... opic=56715

En el primer mensaje, el más interesante, se habla de las diferencias entre materiales, en el posicionamiento de los centros de gravedad, etc. Si hay gente interesada y tengo un rato, me pongo a traducirlo.

[iOgur]

Creo que los Drivers y maderas que llevan detras la siglas TP o la palabra Tour tienen que ver con que son los que se usan en el Tour de verdad no? Por tanto son los mismos que juegan los grandes jugadores.

Creo que por ejemplo un FT-I tour con varilla a medida probada en un buen simulador de una tienda te ayudará para encontrar lo que estas buscado. Ahora si, ten en cuenta una cosa, cuanto más largo es un driver acostumbra a tener menos perdón, y tengo entendido que todo lo que lleva Tour detras del modelo acostumbra a ser bastante más difícil de dominiar.

En cualquier caso siempre son más caros, lo que no se es si son mejores para cualquier o para alguien que tenga un swing muy constante.

Por cierto 215 metros con el driver no es ser muy pegador. Yo no domino nada el driver, y la madera 3 poco, pero doy regularmente golpes de 200 metros (185 de vuelo) en llano con una madera 5 Taylor Made Stiff si la engancho centrada y limpia.

[popdorian]

A lo mejor meto la pata, pero por mi conocimiento, los driver que usan los pros (las versiones tipo TP o Tour, o la denominación correspondiente para cada marca) no pegan mas largo que uno "de calle". Intento explicarme:

-Los pros tienen los palos superajustados a su swing, con lo cual exprimen al palo el 100% de sus posibiliades. Si te hacen un buen fitting, tú sacaras el 100% de tus posibilidades, pero con el mismo palo ajustado a vuestros swings, un pro te seguirá sacando unos cuantos metros (por forma física y entrenamiento).

-Además lo que va buscando un pro en un driver (y en el resto de palos) no es precisamente lo que voy buscando yo (o alguién que no tenga un hcp muy bajo). Los TP, Tour o como sean son versiones con puntos dulces de la cara más pequeños que las versiones normales, con lo que consiguen mover mejor la bola, y no hablo de moverla como yo, 50 metros de slice o hook como le viene en gana a la bola, sino de hacer draw y fade a su antojo. Las versiones "normales" son infinitamente mas tolerantes, y eso es al menos lo que busco yo. Otra cosa es poner una varilla u otra en función de tu swing.

-A cada indio su arco, pero milagros, no. No creo que con el palo de Tiger, vayas a pasar de ser un "pegador" de 220 m a uno de 300. A lo mejor si, pero probablemente tendrás que ir al fuera de límites a buscar la bola.

Buff, que parrafada!!!

He intentado explicarme lo mejor posible, pero admitiré cualquier crítica y/o corrección!!!

[Lacasito]

y me queria perder yo este hilo....
yo tengo un driver de profesional del tour europeo, y unas maderas de calle, y unos hierros... vamos un juego completo. y he estado en el camion de Taylor made, pero no el de los fittings de amateurs, sino en el del tour, durante una prueba del tour y mientras montaban un driver a un pro. Las varillas son las mismas que tu puedas comprar, las cabezas son las mismas que tu puedas comprar, la diferencia es que ellos los llevan a medida, cosa que tu tambien puedes hacer, en el caso de taylor made, en La Cala. La diferencia entre un pro y tu o yo es que ellos saben jugar al golf y nosostros no, nosotros lo intentamos y ellos juegan.

A parte de la coña de pegador de 210 metro, a mi lo que me sorprende es lo de que busca un drive que perdone, como los de los pros.... pues macho, los de los pros son los que menos perdonan, porque ellos buscan otro tipo de cosas como maniobrabilidad y prefieren sacrificar el perdon, ya que su media de golpes buenos es ampliamente superior a la nuestra

[garcia]

¡ Lacasito, como siempre, genial !.

[reve]

El caso es que en los foros americanos, especialmente en BombSquadGolf, tienen hilos e hilos dedicados a las diferencias entre las versiones "de calle" de los drivers y las versiones Tour (que están homologadas pero, por lo visto, son más molonas). que no sé si es a lo que se refería el autor del primer post antes de que el hilo se fuera al garete.

De hecho, tienen dos secciones del foro de equipo, una para material "retail" y otra para material "tour". Si controláis de inglés y queréis dedicarle un rato, echad un vistazo a este enlace:

http://www.bombsquadgolf.com/invboard_r ... opic=56715

En el primer mensaje, el más interesante, se habla de las diferencias entre materiales, en el posicionamiento de los centros de gravedad, etc. Si hay gente interesada y tengo un rato, me pongo a traducirlo.

vaya, hay que registrarse para leerlo, ¿puedes hacer un corta pega?

[Lynyrd]

Pues yo creo que el 99% de los pros juegan la cabeza Honma Beres MG611 con varilla verde del taller de golfclonicos en L flex.

Saludos,
Lluís

[oldgarcia]

Ahora mismito. Mañana la traducción:

The titanium used in the production of the Tour heads is sometimes NOT the same as the retail models. Obviously this is NOT the case for every club or every model, but certainly some. It is a very high grade titanium which is stronger and less prone to failure. The average player will never hit 10,000 balls with his driver like a Tour pro will, and thus, has no real need for this quality of materials. It is also more free of imperfections, and much more costly to tool because of the hardness. This grade is mildly heavier.. Just a few grams heavier, which is why you will always see the weight discrepancy in Tour and retail heads, even raw and unweighted. Obviously this is not the case with all Tour heads. Flagship models are generally of high construction, but many price point drivers are simply built differently in Tour trim. Something that would be of the same grade, would be a driver like Taylormade's TP line, or Callaway's TOUR line. Price point drivers are the ones that will vary in construction.

The COG in the Tour heads is almost ALWAYS at a different point than the retail models, generating a mildly lower ball flight and spin rate that most good players desire. There also are NO heel weight bias' built into the head, unlike retail heads which 99% of the time, have a heel weight bias. This is pretty much true with all Tour drivers no matter what the companies might LIKE the consumer to believe. The Tour head is going to spin less. Retail CG, as with nearly every retail driver, is designed to spin more. Companies add a higher CG to retail heads for increased spin. They make up the difference in launch, as a higher CG launches lower, by adding more loft to the face that is stamped on the head. Basically you will get the same launch from both a retail Tour and Tour issue 10.5 head, but the CG is different, as is actual face loft, so the retail head spins quite a bit more. This allows for straighter drives for the mediocre to bad player, and allows them to actually get the ball in the air. Tour and good players don't need this, and such characteristics hurt their distance. Hence Tour heads are meant to launch high with very low spin. Retail heads, even those marketed as "Tour" also will be slightly heel biased, where true Tour issue heads are neutral to slightly fade biased. As much as people would like to think that Tour and retail head are always the same, they aren't in 99% of the cases. Bottom line, overmatched players will still buy a driver like FT-3 Tour retail, SQ Tour, etc....., and if that head was identical to the Tour issue, they would spray it all over the map and could not keep it in the air.

To clarify on Taylormade's TP line. YES those drivers are the same in construction and have a CG that is the same as a VERSION of Tour. Every driver on Tour will have several different CG variations. Much like Callaway and the FT line. Most of them, however you cannot see. Will the TP be the same as a VERSION of driver that is on Tour. The answer is yes. There are generally always, at least 4-5 different CG versions of each TP head on Tour. The TP will be the one that best suits the average player and will be most popular in the retail marketplace. So is TP the same as Tour? Yes and no. It's the same as ONE VERSION of a Tour head, but not the same as the more anti left set ups that some players will play. It's going to be the same driver that someone on Tour is playing, certainly, but BSG will have a more diverse lineup of CG variations.

It's very easy to say that something is the same as what Tour players play. You really could do that about almost ANY product. Someone, somewhere, on some Tour, has probably played it. I'm sure there's someone somewhere on earth, on a professional Tour playing literally EVERY club that exists in retail today. OEM's could say that they are ALL the same as Tour clubs. Think about it. Let's take HiBore Tour for example, there were 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, 1B, 2B, 3B, 4B, 1C, 2C, 3C, all with at least 3 different variations of face angle. TWELVE different CG locations in total, all with different face angle casts. It's like that with EVERY golf club. HiBore XL Tour, is this the "same as Tour". Yes it is. The same as one of the 10 CG versions of the head, tested on Tour. Common sense then tells you, it has to be, most likely, one with slight heel bias weighting, but closer to neutral than the base XL model. Taylormade TP for example. R7 425 has about 5-6 different CG locations for Tour. One is heel biased, one spins more, one hits very low, one neutral, one is slightly fade biased, one is really fade baised, etc.......When OEM's tell you something is the same as what's played on Tour, they ARE telling you the truth if examined technically. That's what BSG is for, to identify those things for you, and clarify all the finite differences.

In Tour fairway woods and utilities, there will also be a mildly deeper COG, and either neutral or fade bias built into the COG of the head. 99% of retail fairways and utilities have a heel/draw bias, and generally a more upright lie angle to help the "average" player control their slice.

Of course we all know the face angle is generally square or open on a Tour head, but this is an adjustment made by the BSG Tour Dept., PGA Tour departments or vans, and is really not relevant to any production or internal differences, but is still a difference none the less.

All Tour heads are also tested and conform to the maximum allowable CT. This ensures you receive a head that is conforming, but at the legal limit. Retail heads can be all over the map in terms of CT. Some may actually be over CT, but many are well under. It's simply production tolerance.

In terms of Tour irons, most manufacturers will have their heads forged by one of the premium facilities like Miura or Endo for the Tour product, but go with a large mass forging facility for the production heads. TaylorMade for example used to use Miura to forge the Tour sets, Titleist uses Endo, and Nike has used both in the production of the Tour heads. Tour irons are generally dead on spec in terms of weight. You will not get a Tour set of irons with head weights all over the board like you do with certain retail sets. This is because of the quality control at the high grade forging houses, or simply OEM's demanding tighter spec from the Tour equipment. These heads are also nearly free of imperfections both external and internal, and can have an entirely different feel than their retail counterparts if forged differently. These forgings are, obviously, higher quality controlled across the board, and MUCH more expensive to have done than the retail line in some cases, such as Miura heads.

Often time the sole configuration is a bit different as well. Much of the time Tour irons will have a slightly more narrow sole, a blunted leading edge, as the Tour player generally hits down through the ball, taking a divot, where the "average" player generally does not. Often times the Tour heads will have less offset as well as certain lower glare finishes like black or satin, as opposed to the shiney chrome of most retail clubs. Perfect example of differences required by Tour players is Callaway's X-Tour. Tour players use the "T" sole model which is much better suited to their needs, but less suited to the average amature.

Grooves can also be different in Tour irons as well, not only in configuration, but in actual production. Tour iron heads will ALWAYS have precision milled grooves, where the cutting tool is changed prematurely to make sure there are no imperfections in any of the grooves, unlike retail which are mass produced and can be more sloppy in terms of quality and precision. Tour iron heads are also often made with both box and V grooves. This is distinguishable on TaylorMade Tour iron heads by the lack of swirl marks on the face of the iron. This has NOTHING to do with the face being milled, as all Tour iron heads are milled for precision. They just remove the swirl marks on the V groove heads to help reduce the spin slightly. V grooves are a lower spin head for the player who wants a flatter and more penetrating ball flight. Most Tour irons will also have 100% milled grooves.

Tour wedges can, in many cases, be drastically different than their retail counterparts. They share many of the characteristics of Tour irons, but also have their own unique differences as well. Tour wedges will often have unique finishes and very unique sole grinds. More so than iron heads, to combat a variety of conditions and player styles. The most obvious difference to the eye are facial milling marks on many occasions, varying grinds, and Tour only finishes.

The main difference that makes a Tour wedge perform differently than a retail wedge is the groove. Most Tour wedges will have a more aggressive groove than retail. This groove is meant to generate more spin. This spin is a God send on very fast greens, from deep rough, and in the wind. Common sense will tell you that more spin means a higher ball flight, but with the way a groove bites the ball, the flight is actually lower and more penetrating, which allows the player to generate great spin for bite, and a lower flight for MUCH improved control. Many average players enjoy seeing a high arcing wedge shot. PGA Tour pros prefer the lower, more controlled flight, assisted by their wedge grooves and confidence that the ball will bite, even when hit low and flat. Most Tour wedges will have an aggressive box groove design.

I would also like to add that some aftermarket companies will offer what they like to CALL a Tour groove. The difference is that in precision made Tour wedges, the groove is milled deep and wide, but also beveled on the edges slightly to allow for more control over the spin rate, and to avoid extreme ball sheering, which can cause unpredictable spin, unpredictable ball flight, and interfere with putting. These aftermarket company wedges may generate green holding spin, but don't be fooled into believing that they are the equal of a TRUE Tour wedge in terms of consistency and quality. If the wedge devours the cover of a premium golf ball with regularity, take a pass. Your wedges are your SCORING clubs. Don't settle for anything but the club that gives you the best opportunity to get as close to the hole as possible, AND make the putt.

Obviously putters can be different as well in even more ways that other clubs. Custom Tour only head shapes, finishes, Tour only inserts, heavier headweights, custom necks, etc......are very common on Tour. The differences are generally visually obvious with putters.

Todd

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TaylorMade response to Y groove wedges: (from Jose Miraflor)

Todd,

Sorry to hear that our small changes are causing such a stink. This issue also came up in Japan & Europe too. First let me say that this issue of 15 vs. 16 grooves is not color specific. You will see the change in all the finishes. Their tools are all made from the same masters.

Reason for Change:
As you know we constantly work to make products more consistent in production. The original drawing for all of the wedges had 15 grooves. Some of the skus were produced by the vendor with a 16th groove. Understanding that this groove is not used and that TM strives for consistency throughout the line-up of wedges, our operations group worked with the vendor to alter this configuration. The result was the 16th groove was removed and the other 15 grooves were moved to their intended positions, which show no difference to the naked eye.

Performance:
There are no performance differences between the two heads. Whether you have
a wedge with 16 or 15 grooves the same amount of grooves (5 max) will grab the golf ball at impact. The same amount of spin will be imparted, and the result is maximum control over wedge shots. The spacing between the groove (land area) did not change. We hold very tight tolerances the land area is three times the width of the groove (USGA limit).

Y Cutter vs. std Modified U Groove:
This 16 to 15 groove changed occurred on both Tour and std wedges in all finishes. You will see in the market and on Tour players using 16 groove Y Cutter wedges as well as 15. There are only two ways to identify a Mod Y Cutter Wedge:

1. "Y" engraved on the toe area of the face
2. Double dots ".." stamped on the backside of the hosel area.

Regardless of the number of grooves these Mod Y cutters offer the maximum & most consistent amount of spin in the market and on tour today. I hope that your members and customers are experiencing much success with the wedges.

Regards,

Jose Miraflor
Product Creation Manager
Irons, Putters & Wedges
TaylorMade-adidas Golf


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Comments from ADAMS GOLF

2) Tour equipment and retail equipment on being the same, this question has been answered many, many times in regard to every OEM's clubs. Believe it or not, they are not the same (except in certain cases and the OEM will generally inform the retailers of this), it doesn't make sense to build clubs for the best players in the world and hope that the average golfer will embrace the differences and find a tour players clubs are designed exactly the opposite of what would benefit them. Todd hammers this fact over and over again, I find it hard to believe that there is some sort of question in regard to this. This equipment is not for everyone, it spins less, launches lower, the cg's or higher and toward the toe of the club, the lie angles are flatter than any retail equipment and the bounce angles are positioned in different places. Other than that, they are pretty close.


5) I have a lot of friends in the tour end of the golf business and I will tell you that the best place to get factual info on Tour heads and equipment in from BOMBSQUADGOLF.com. I have yet to read anything that that Todd or Derek has written that is not completely true. Companies, especially golf companies, have a bit of a disconnect when it comes to thier respective tour departments, because their staff is always on the road and most of the design work is done by a select few people within their companies, most outsiders seem to grab at whatever info they hear swirling in the office.